PALEO GROUP

Radiocarbon (RC) or (C-14) dating of linen, cotton, bones, fossils, wood, sea shells, seeds, coal, diamond (anything with carbon) is one of the most common and well understood of the various scientific dating methods.

Carbon 14 is an isotope of carbon which is formed naturally in the atmosphere. All plants and animals have a regular intake of carbon while they are alive. When an animal or plant dies it no longer takes in carbon of any form. That plant or animal most often decays and its constituent parts break down and are eaten by scavengers, or they decay,or are washed away etc. Once in a great while under catastrophic circumstances the animal or plant is encased in some sediment, or frozen, or desicated, or otherwise preserved quickly so that its structure and constituent parts are preserved.

We know that if we separate the carbon out of a recently dead plant or animal there will be roughly five trillion atoms of carbon 14 out of a total of 6.02x 10 23rd power atoms of carbon in a gram of pure carbon. Scientists have ways of counting the carbon 14 atoms in a sample and then knowing the total number of carbon atoms and the number of carbon 14 atoms they can figure out how old the material is. As with most scientific dating schemes certain assumptions must be made for the method to be useful. With carbon dating we usually assume that after the organisms death no more carbon is transferred into the dead material. But what happens if it is a porous material that has been exposed to rainwater soaked with decaying matter? Do we know that no extra carbon has been absorbed by the material under test? If we suspect that additional carbon has been absorbed by the speciman can we process it in such a way that we can eliminate the carbon that soaked in over time from the outside world? Can we scrape off an outer layer? can we chemically treat it to get at carbon that is in the inherent structure? Can we process it chemically to rid us of absorbed carbon? These are questions that have been worked on over the years to refine and make carbon dating the most accurate of all radiometric dating schemes. C-14 has a half life of ~5,568 years, The maximum theoretical detection limit is about 100,000 years].

Radiocarbon dating is the most accurate, most studied, most verified of all the radiometric dating schemes. One of the chief reasons for this is that absolute dates for carbon material can be absolutely independently verified for certain parts of its useful range. Radiocarbon dating is useable up to 50 to 80 thousand years depending on various factors. All the labs doing radiocarbon dating report their information and it is compiled in the "Radiocarbon journal". This journal publishes dates for materials throughout the world. It is a forum where scientists can discuss the problems, solutions and issues using this technology

There have been serious technical conferences world wide for over 50 years where scientists gather to exchange information concerning this technology. Labs do NOT get "absolute dates" as claimed by some. There is always some degree of uncertainty and often dates are given as +or- so many years from a number. For older samples the more a "calibration correction curve " is normally used. The farther back the date the more uncertainty in the date. However carbon dating is extremely useful since it covers all the years for which we have written history and also sound archealogical artifacts. The equipment can be very expensive and be overa million dollars to set up an accurate laboratory.

How do we know that carbon 14 has any accuracy at all? One method of verifying is through comparison with tree ring samples. One of the oldest species of trees in north america and also in the world is the bristlecone pine (latin name pinus longaeva). The oldest known specimans being in the range of 4800 years old. Except on extremely rare occasions the tree adds one growth ring per year. Simple counting of the rings from the tree can determine its age. Scientists have confidence in the absolute age of that tree within a tiny fraction of one percent accuracy. Material from a particular growth ring year can be extracted with a coring machine and sent to labs for carbon dating. Thus a very accurate cross check can be made.

Compare this with a dating scheme such as potassium argon dating which generally is considered accurate for 100,000 years and older. We have no absolutely reliable dates of anything that is over 100,000 years old. Sure there are numerous claims that dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago due to radiometric dating of the KT geological boundary. In depth study of the methods and assumptions used show that no method is anywhere near as accurate or testable as tree ring counting and carbon 14 dating.  All other dating methods have serious problems and gross assumptions must be made. In addition potassium argon dating has been shown by many to have serious problems. If,as popularly claimed, dinosaurs have been extinct for 65 million years, there should not be once molecule of carbon 14 left in their bones. If as popularly believed most limestone formations are 500 million years old, then there should be no carbon 14 present in them. Yet, when carbon-containing rocks or bones are tested they always contain c14. Both creationist and evolutionist have taken the one material that cannot be accused of being contaminated and have used supposedly 500 million year to 3 billion year old diamonds to see if there is any carbon 14 in them. Anything that old should not have even one atom of carbon 14. Yet both sides get the same result and that is that 100 million year old diamonds do have carbon 14 in them. This is a serious problem. For more information on this consult the article in this link.

With any radiometric dating scheme certain assumptions must be made. The first assumption made is that carbon 14 has always been produced and had the same concentration in the atmosphere. This assumption is more important the older the carbon sample is.   After 10,000 years there are no absolute calibration points such as tree rings. Another assumption is that radioactive decay rates stay the same and have always been what we measure them now to be. We have only been able to measure radioactive decay rates within the last hundred years. What is the effect of decay rates or of carbon 14 generation by a supernova. Such questions still remain incompletely answered.

One thing that is agreed upon is that if a material is claimed to be 30 million years old there should be no carbon 14 atoms left. No matter how old the carbon material is science labs almost always find some carbon 14. This problem has been studied at great length and the radiocarbon journal is filled with articles on the subject. Old carbon containing materials such as coal and marble (calcium carbonate) and diamonds have been studied: These materials were from alleged multi-million year old formations and are supposed to be that old. When one carbon dates these materials they always find some carbon 14 present. How can this be? There are several possibilities as outlined below. They are the following.

1. Carbon 14 from the surrounding environment have been introduced into the sample. This could happen from ground water washing in or bacteria invading a sample. A hard non porous carbon material such as diamond, hard coal, or amber would make this unlikely and can be ruled out for those materials.
2. The carbon 14 lab has used materials in its processing that contain carbon 14. Perhaps the sample holder had some carbon in it.
3. Contamination during sample preparation. This is something all labs are aware of and make great efforts to avoid this problem.
4. Error due to the machine performing and measuring results. This is not likely given the extreme care given to these many experiments by numerous people over a span of 50 years.
5. Nuclear synthesis of carbon 14 in situ during the experiment. This has been ruled out by experts.
6. Nuclear synthesis of carbon 14 in the coal or marble itself while laying in the ground for alleged millions of years. This has been ruled out by experts as well.
7. Nuclear synthesis of ordinary carbon to carbon 14 while the material is in situ. In other words could the carbon material while buried, frozen or whatever be lying next to or exposed to a strong radioactive material that bombarded the carbon atoms and turned some of them into carbon 14 from carbon 16.
8. There actually is carbon 14 in the sample being tested and the dating scheme that claims the material is 100 million years old is itself badly flawed and needs to be reexamined. The carbon 14 testing method does give a more correct and more reliable age than any other method known.

RADIOCARBON DATING OF BONE

Carbon 14 dating of bone is one of the most difficult tasks for carbon dating and requires the most care of any carbonaceous material. This is mainly due to the nature of bone which is a very porous material. Certain parts of bone look like a sponge under microscopic examination.    Many dinosaur bones are hard as rock because the original material has been replaced with silicon materials such as quartz. We have found un-mineralized dinosaur bones. We can then scrape the outer surface off to get rid of surface contamination and date the inner remaining material. Depending on other factors one can choose to date just the purified bioapatite, total organics or collagen. One can also date all three components as was done by us (see chart below).

The discovery of collagen in a Tyrannosaurus-Rex dinosaur femur bone was recently reported in the journal SCIENCE. This is an outstanding find because collagen being a soft tissue present in most animals is supposed to decay in a few thousand years. Collagen is the main protein found in connective tissue of animals. It can make up as much as 1 to 6 percent of muscle mass. Recently Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered in Glendive Montana and our group received permission to saw them in half and collect samples for Carbon 14 testing. Both bones were tested by a licensed lab for presence of collagen. Both bones did in fact contain some collagen! The best process ( Accelerator Mass Spectrometry ) was used. Total organic carbon and dinosaur bio-apatite was then extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained, all of which were similar to radiocarbon dates for ice age megafauna such as Siberian mammoths, saber tooth tigers of the Los Angeles LaBrea Tarpits, sloth dung and giant bison. We generally go with AMS dating because of its inherent superior accuracy but use the conventional method when large samples are available to completely rule out contamination. This is recommended by the professional carbon dating laboratory specialists.

The following should be noted. Our group has radiocarbon dated mammoth and mastodon bones in the range of 23,560 to 36,000 years BP, and none of them contained any collagen. Yet some dinosaur bones contain collagen. We believe the absence of collagen depends on burial environment. Bones buried in sand with water generally have only bio-apatite remaining which is still datable. Dry or cold environments and or regions of individual bones free of cracks and bones buried in clay stand a better chance of containing collagen.

Dr. Libby the discoverer of Radiocarbon dating and Nobel Prize winner showed that purified collagen could not give erroneous ages. Dr Stafford's research demonstrated in 1990 that conventional methods of purifying collagen were within 5% of the most excruciatingly exact extraction techniques. It is not possible to claim that the laboratories made mistakes in their analysis and that there really was no collagen. General scientific thought says dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago. We have evidence to the contrary from several sources. Radiocarbon dating of dinosaur bones, accounts from ancient histories, depictions on rocks, mozaics, and temple walls; and human footprints with dinosaurs strongly show that dinosaurs were around in historical times. More on these subjects are included in our other web pages. Dinosaur bones from Texas to Alaska have been tested by our group for the presence of Carbon 14 and the following table shows some of the results of our findings over the years.

Columbus Dispatch, The (OH) November 3, 1991 CREATIONISTS SAY DINOSAURS LIVED WITH MAN Author: Michael B. Lafferty, Dispatch Science Reporter
A Columbus creation science group says Soviet tests confirm dinosaurs and humans were contemporaries as recently as 10,000 years ago, some 66 million years after dinosaurs were supposedly eliminated in a mass extinction.

Soviet scientists Dmitri Kouznetsov and Andrey Ivanov said the tests showed samples of dinosaur bones were 9,800 to 30,000 years old. Ivanov, a researcher at Moscow State University, used a technique called laser mass spectroscopy, which measures small quantities of chemicals, to analyze samples of the bones.

"This method is far from ideal. We're not sure of the absolute age. But we are sure of the coexistence of Asian man and dinosaurs," said Kouznetsov, a biochemist and a supporter of the concept of creationism.

Creation science holds that the literal, biblical account of creation can be scientifically verified and that humans did not evolve, or change gradually, from simpler, more primitive organisms over 4.5 billion years.

A leading critic of creationist theory called the reported findings "ludicrous" and said the creationists used testing methods inappropriate for fossils.

"Either we're going to live in the same world or go for any piece of bunk," said Leonard Krishtalka, curator of the Carnegie Museum of Natural History in Pittsburgh. "No matter what date they claim, the dinosaurs died out 66 million years ago."

Investigators at the University of Arizona, who tested some of the samples at the request of local creationists, said their results do not represent the true age of the fossils.

Creationists, however, are elated with the Soviets' findings as well as the Arizona data which, they say, confirms their beliefs. They are undeterred by the skepticism.

"We have knocked 100 million years off the age of the dinosaurs," said Hugh Miller, leader of the Creation Research Education Science Foundation, which arranged the testing and a visit to Columbus for the Soviet scientists last week.

The Soviets used bone fragments of a dozen dinosaurs obtained from finds in Texas and Colorado and from the collection at the Carnegie Museum, Miller said.

The data is one more attack by believers of creationist theory on the theory of evolution, which has provided the fundamental underpinnings of modern biology. Mainline scientists believe dinosaurs evolved about 200 million years ago before dying in a mass extinction about 65 million or 66 million years ago.

A cataclysm fits with a closely held belief of creationists - Noah's flood, which Miller believes occurred 10,000 to 30,000 years ago.

Miller, a former chemist and chemical equipment salesman who says he earns his living as a chemical consultant, contacted Kouznetsov in 1989 after reading a biochemistry article he wrote. Kouznetsov put Miller in contact with Ivanov.

"There is censorship in the American scientific community resenting any attempt to rock the boat," Miller said. "We expect other scientists to check us out."

Two of the specimens were obtained from bones of an acrocanthosaurus recovered by creationist researchers near Glen Rose, Texas, and of an allosaurus from near Grand Junction, Colo.

Because many scientists are skeptical of creationist theory, Miller obtained some bone samples and the corroborative testing by disguising the nature of the creationist science group. He obtained a dozen samples from the Carnegie Museum in in 1990.

Miller said carbon-14 dating at the University of Arizona, conducted on specimens submitted between August 1990 and October 1991, agreed with the Soviet testing.

The group also arranged the Arizona testing by not revealing its origins. Austin Long, professor of geosciences at the university, confirmed the tests were performed in his lab but said he was not aware the material was dinosaur bones.

Robert Kalin, senior research specialist in Long's lab, said Miller's samples did not contain any collagen, the fibrous connective tissue of bones and the source of carbon in old bones, but he dated the samples anyway. Kalin believes the carbon-14 test results show the age of dust and other debris on the fossils but not the age of the fossils.

If carbon was found in the fossils, Krishtalka said, it most likely came from dust, dirt and the shellac preservative with which the specimens were likely preserved when they were acquired by the museum in the 19th century.

"Carbon dating dinosaur bones is ludicrous, and the fact they yielded numbers is meaningless," Krishtalka said. While paleontologists use several methods in dating, part of the disparity rests in the need for researchers to make some assumptions about the gross age of bones so the appropriate test method can be used. Carbon-14 dating and mass spectroscopy dating are best for specimens up to 50,000 years or so, Long said.

If a scientist believes the bones are millions of years older, then the usual procedure is to date the age of the surrounding rock strata using potassium argon dating, uranium dating or strontium dating, all of which measure the amount of decay of those elements.

The creationist claim also attacks a fundamental tenet of geology, that older rock strata are overlaid by younger, more recent strata.

Miller also attacked that bedrock law of geology. He said it is possible for younger sediment to occur at lower levels than older sediment. This phenomenon, Miller believes, could account for the recovery of a human foot imprint in sediment below that containing dinosaur bones at the Glen Rose site worked by organization members.

But Krishtalka at the Carnegie Museum said the only way for older rocks to overlay younger rocks is for the sediments to be overturned as a result of mountain building or some similar process.

"That's like asking how I could lie down on the bed and have the mattress end up on top of me," he said. Krishtalka also said the Glen Rose footprint was proved to be a hoax. "Even the creationists, at least the more reputable ones, admit that."

Miller reacted angrily. "I deny that vehemently. He's relying on past information and misinformation. All the work from 1982 on has been done with dozens of witnesses." "If dinosaurs were alive 10,000 years ago," Krishtalka said, "then they should occur in the same sediment as mastodons and mammoths. We should find saber-toothed cats. They should be in the same rocks as humans."

The gulf separating the two camps is immense. "Let them go to their museum basements and scrape the bones and send them out for testing," Miller said in answer to the criticism.

THE COLUMBUS DISPATCH Copyright (c) 1991 The Dispatch Printing Co.
Record Number: 9111030053
Page: 01BNovember 3, 1991
CREATIONISTS SAY DINOSAURS LIVED WITH MAN
Author: Michael B. Lafferty, Dispatch Science Reporter

Leonardo the Mummy dinosaur—the world’s best preserved dinosaur -- www.montanadinosaurdigs.com

Horner/Schweitzer’s T Rex and Hadrosaur containing soft tissue and collagen www.museumoftherockies.org

Chinese dinosaurs and mammals from Gobi Desert and 400 KM from Peijing www.dinosaurs.about.com/od/dinosaurfossilsites/p/flamingcliff.htm

British squid ink from 200 M years BP www.dinosaurc14ages.com/squidink.htm

Antarctic fish bone bed www.science-frontiers.com/sf104/sf104p10.htm

Ancient Arctic forest on Ellesmere Island 2M to 8 M years BP [NSF-Amer Geo Union December 16, 2010, Columbus Dispatch December 17th 2010]

Core samples of un-fossilized trees from Prudhoe Bay up to at least 2000 feet in depth. Presumably in core repositories from oil well drill holes in government, university and oil well companies.

Jane the almost intact dinosaur at the Burbee Seeds Museum of Natural history www.burpee.org/exhibits/index.asp

Ashley bone beds of Charleston SC. containing Hadrosaur, mammoth, marine bones and human bones together www.genesis park/grave.htm

Colville River Hadrosaur bone beds Our CRSEF team in 1994 performed this expedition -- one dino bone fragment containing a small % of nitrogen which is indicative of collagen was 31,050 +230-/-220 RC years BP but only reported by hugoc14 using German lab as arranged by myself and Dr. Giertych. Interestingly, the date was same as for collagen from Triceratops from Montana and for the Allosaur re-dated in 2008 [1987].

Then in 2002 dinsaur bones discovered at the ends of the earth: www. alaskascienceoutreach..com/index.php/features/sis_partone/poles_apart_extreme_dinosaur_digs_at_ the ends_of_the_earth

1. Origins Vol. 51: 6-30 2001 Carbon-14 Content of Fossil Carbon
2. Lindgren J, Uvdal P, Engdahl A, Lee AH, Alwmark C, et al. (2011) Microspectroscopic Evidence of Cretaceous Bone Proteins. PLoS ONE 6(4): e19445. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0019445 article
3. Radiocarbon Journal numerous articles
4. Young age of dinosaur with Carbon dating such as Mosasaur article by ICR's Brian Thomas
5. Measurable 14C in fossilized organic materials: Fifth International Conference on Creationism August 4-8, 2003. Refer to website found at
   
     Contact Us         Home Page      
     Kinds of fossils         World Views         Interesting articles         Dinosaurs in history         Sediments         Radioactive Decay         Mudstone forming         Oil Formation         Wood to Stone         Carbon 14 Dating      Wordlwide Research         Grand Canyon Research         Conferences         Dinosaur Blood         Footprints